Two of my fave boyss
I am very very disappointed right now. Even though I don't write… - Me myself and I
It's all about me
I am very very disappointed right now.

Even though I don't write it, I really do like the occasional Dean/Castiel, and up to now I would have told you that at least most Dean/Cas fans seem to like Sam as well. They might not always use him, and a lot of them seem to try and put him with Gabriel to get him out of the way. But at least so far all Dean/Cas fics I've read seem to like him well enough and realize how much Dean likes him.

Until now.

I just started reading a fic that has over 80 chapters, I'm currently at chapter 15 and with every chapter the fic pisses me off more.

At first I could take their Sam as being Soulless Sam from early s6, since the fic is au from early s6. But in the past four chapters or so, the Sam bashing has gotten worse and worse. Up to the point that they had Cas telling Dean how Sam was never worthy of Dean's love and was always a bad apple.

(with the addition of how Sam was bad for dragging Micheal(and with him Adam) into hell as well. I mean, aside of the point that Sam didn't drag Micheal in, Micheal grabbed hold and fell in with him, but that's not what matters anyway... It's like they want to take Sam's heroic moment and make it something bad and that's just...ggrrrrraaaaargggh)

Why would someone do this? Sam is Dean's brother. Dean loves Sam, Sam loves Dean. If they wanted to have Sam be a bit antagonistic, all they had to do was take the show's cue and play with soulless Sam. In fact, I could have even taken it if Sam was being bad but Dean and with him Cas, were still defending him. But to have Castiel insulting Sam and telling Dean how Sam always sucked and betrayed him and... it just made Cas look bad, cause it made him very similar to Ruby when she was trying to create a wedge between the Winchester brothers.

I kinda liked to think that Dean/Cas shippers were above this kind of thing. And it's seriously disappointed me that this writer at the least isn't. The fact that her reviewers seem to encourage this kind of behavior only makes it worse *pouts*

I just utterly despise char bashing. Seriously, you do not need to bash Sam to have Dean end up with Castiel. Dean can love Sam and it won't take away from his love for the character of your choice. Why is it that some people just don't seem to get that?

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cherrymmm From: cherrymmm Date: May 8th, 2011 01:24 pm (UTC) (Link)
You are more determined then I would be. I would have stopped reading long before chapter 15!

I'm not really on a specific ship train (see what I did there? heh) but I really don't like stories that make them so out of character as to be unrecognizable. This show at it's core is about family and specifically these two brothers. Ship Dean with whoever you want but he will always choose Sam in the end.
liliaeth From: liliaeth Date: May 8th, 2011 03:34 pm (UTC) (Link)
the problem is that aside of the Sam bashing, the fic hits certain kinks of mine. Like a focus on Micheal without making him the bad guy, and having Dean deal with members of the Vatican. So I'm still reading.

Seriously, I'm still holding out hope that this Sam will turn out to be the soulless one, because that way the fic could still be salvageable.
otp_destiel From: otp_destiel Date: May 8th, 2011 02:04 pm (UTC) (Link)
Hello, since your bashing my fic here publically without daring to leave a review, I figured I'd just make a few comments. Feel free to ignore.
One, if you'd looked at any of my other fics, you'd see that I'm perfectly aware that Sam can be included in Dean/Cas fics without any kind of negative connotations or consequences. He's in all my other Dean/Cas fics. And in ones like Cursed he comes out looking very good, so don't take one fic and make generalizations please.
Two, if you've looked at the notes at the beginning of the fic, you'll have seen that this fic was started after seeing just 6.01 so no one knew about soulless Sam and most especially not at the point where I wrote the chapters in question. So at that point no one knew that the way Sam was acting wasn't anything but purely Sam. Given that, I'm sure you can understand that I was more then a little pissed at him. Later we learn why he's been acting like that, but at that point we had no reason to believe that it wasn't 100% him.
And finally, you don't know if I'm going with anything special influencing Sam or not. Like you said, you're at chapter 15 of more than 80 in a fic that just doesn't have much Sam in it. Season 6 took nearly half a season to tell us that Sam had no soul, perhaps I'm just taking my time? I'm not saying anything one way or the other as I'm not spoiling the fic for those who're reading it.
Now, for what Cas said in chapter 12, I was very careful to stick only to events that had happened in the show. Maybe I'm viewing them differently from you, but every event I mentioned (Sam drinking demon blood, Sam betraying Dean for a demon, Sam keeping on after Lilith despite Dean being free...) all happened. I had no need to make things up as it was already there in canon.
liliaeth From: liliaeth Date: May 8th, 2011 03:31 pm (UTC) (Link)
I actually made sure not to mention your fic by name or link, so I don't know where you get that I'm bashing you in specific. Nor did I give any links to the contents of the fic, beyond the Sam bashing parts.

Now I do get being angry with Sam at the start of s6, and I appreciate that you gave the Campbells, well Samuel at least, more credit than most writers do.

But chapter 12, you'd seriously defend that? Honestly?

Yes, those things happened, but you had Cas looking at them from the worst possible interpretation ever. Using every last one of them as proof positive that Sam's a jerk and with no counter example whatsoever to show otherwise. If I didn't know better, I'd say he was the angelic counterpart of Ruby, just trying to turn Dean against Sam.

For the record, I haven't left a review yet, because I hadn't finished reading yet. I'm currently at chapter 49, what can I say, I'm stubborn, and I do like a lot of parts of your fics, just none of the ones that bash Sam.

I do appreciate that you have the angels as good guys, and that you actually had Dean interacting with the Vatican. It's something I wish more fics would do, having the Winchesters and Cas specifically interact with priests or other religious leaders.
lolaluu From: lolaluu Date: May 8th, 2011 08:13 pm (UTC) (Link)
It was pretty obvious to anyone who has read it what fic you are talking about. I, personally, love that fic. The Sam bashing, which I'm reserving judgment on until the story is finished so that I can see how it is resolved before making up my mind, is a plot device of one authors imagination. Not to be rude but, if you don't like it, don't read it. Bashing someone's fic for bashing a character you like. . . seems wrong.
liliaeth From: liliaeth Date: May 11th, 2011 08:56 am (UTC) (Link)
Well it could have been a fic I read on or somewhere else, which is why I didn't link to it, or pinpoint anything beyond the pairing or the amount of chapters.

That's beside the point though.

I just read the entire fic, in the hope that there'd be some explanation for Sam's behavior or even more important, Dean's reaction to it. Because I have a bigger issue with the way Dean doesn't even seem to realize that Sam is behaving out of character and seems to think that this kind of behavior is normal for Sam.

Honestly, I do hope that this Sam will turn out to be either soulless, or influenced by demonblood. But if he is, Dean will have a lot of groveling to do, for not even realizing that something was wrong with his brother.

I guess it's the thing where I love both brothers, Dean more than Sam, but still ... and seeing either of them bashed or made into the bad guy (unless it's a specific evilSam fic ;-) ) just feels wrong to me. Because it isn't so much that he's acting like s6 soulless Sam, but that Dean acts as if Sam's behavior is how he's always been.
impala1967 From: impala1967 Date: May 9th, 2011 02:07 am (UTC) (Link)
I too knew which story you were talking about, and I'm loving this story. I am waiting to see the outcome cause the story is still going with 'soulless sam' cause he is still with the Campbells
otp_destiel From: otp_destiel Date: May 10th, 2011 04:36 pm (UTC) (Link)
Well, actually, I find the lack of link almost worse as it means that the people reading your post aren't able to go tell for themselves what's actually in the fic and just have to take your word for it. Not including a link also mean that the LJ pingback bot wouldn't alert me to the fact that you'd posted about my fic.
Besides, given that you said that it's a) Dean/Cas and b) got 80+ chapters pretty much narrows it down and makes it recognizable all on its own as several other people have told you here already now.

As for chapter 12, absolutely. In essence what the chapter boils down to is Castiel trying to get Dean to see his own worth and that it doesn't have to revolve around Sam.
And no, trust me, that wasn't the worst possible interpretation of them ever, not by a long shot. Things could be looked at a lot more darkly. I didn't even touch on the way Sam was willing to leave innocents in danger when it was clear staying wouldn't help his revenge motives (beginning season 1 with the wendigo) or things like that. Plus, I talked out all of the points I mentioned with a good friend who's a huge fan of the show and a practicing psychiatrist and she says it's a very valid interpretation of events and a likely one from what we've seen.
As for counter examples, Cas knows full well that Dean is capable of thinking of all the good things that Sam does. That's not the problem, the problem is that Dean willfully can't see the other side of his brother which played a large part in how long it took him to see how bad things were getting with Ruby. Cas didn't need to point out the flipside as he knew that Dean could already see that.
And at no point did Cas try and turn the brothers against each other as Ruby was obviously trying to do from day one. He was just trying to show Dean that he can't just keep trusting Sam not to hurt him. Which, given the way Dean was going before and his tendency to turn to alcohol, was done in a sincere effort to help.

I think if you felt it early enough to leave a critique here you could have done it there just as easily.
And perhaps we see 'bash' differently as I don't view pointing out things that have happened in the show without making up anything new to justify the way I want a character seen as bashing. Not when it's a valid interpretation of events. Just because it's not something everyone agrees with doesn't make it any less valid. That's part of the beauty of the show, they give us such rich characters, all of which are greatly flawed. You didn't seem to mind me exploring Dean's with the alcohol and other self-destructive behaviors he was doing, so how is the exploration of Sam's any different?
impala1967 From: impala1967 Date: May 9th, 2011 02:10 am (UTC) (Link)
wanted to say Hi, and I'm loving your fic. Haven't commented before cause a friend originally sent a copy of it and he's been updating it for me .... but it is awesome, keep up the good work.
otp_destiel From: otp_destiel Date: May 10th, 2011 03:58 pm (UTC) (Link)
Thanks! And that's a bit of a roundabout way of getting to the fic, but whatever works :)
impala1967 From: impala1967 Date: May 10th, 2011 04:11 pm (UTC) (Link)
he's doing it so I can read it on my e-reader =)
otp_destiel From: otp_destiel Date: May 10th, 2011 04:40 pm (UTC) (Link)
Ah. You're the second person to mention that. I was asked earlier if I'd make the entire thing available that way, whenever I end up finishing it.
icafreak From: icafreak Date: May 8th, 2011 02:15 pm (UTC) (Link)
I do not read SPN fic, but while reading your post my brain kept replacing Dean with Buffy, Cas with Spike, and Sam with Angel. True, the dynamics and character relationships are totally different (Wincest does not exist in my brain, familial love ONLY), but I think Dean/Cas writers need to bash Sam comes from a very similar place of Spuffy writers need to bash Angel/Bangel. You tear down the character/relationship that you think stands in the way of your chosen couple, even though by doing that you're essential saying your couple is weak in comparison. Especially when to do the tearing/bashing you have to make the characters act as OCC as your description make this fic out to be doing.

Please, for your own sanity, run screaming from this fic and forget its existent.

Edited at 2011-05-08 06:19 pm (UTC)
liliaeth From: liliaeth Date: May 8th, 2011 03:42 pm (UTC) (Link)
The funny part is that in this scenario, it'd be more like the writer is bashing Dawn in a Buffy/Spike fic.

Sam matters a lot to Dean, kinda like Dawn matters a lot to Buffy. And when it comes down to it, Dean will pick Sam before anyone, just like Buffy picked Dawn before anyone. But there's no real romantic threat there. Not unless you want it to be there.

Yes, there's a lot of Dean/Sam shippers, but a Dean/Cas shipper has no real reason to see Sam as a threat to their ship, cause in canon, both Dean and Sam have pretty much reacted with horror at the idea of the two of them getting slashed. (and I do mean that literally, there actually was an ep, where they found out someone was writing books about them and their life and that there were fans writing fics about them, including Dean/Sam shippers and Dean's first reaction was: "they do realize we're brothers, right?")
frelling_tralk From: frelling_tralk Date: May 8th, 2011 03:48 pm (UTC) (Link)
The Sam bashing is what always makes me a bit wary of Dean/Castiel fandom, I hate this idea that the show would be so much better with jsut Dean and Castiel
liliaeth From: liliaeth Date: May 8th, 2011 03:54 pm (UTC) (Link)
The thing is, most Dean/Cas shippers don't do this, bash Sam I mean. And from what she says, even the writer herself doesn't usually do so.

Most Dean/Cas shippers love Sam as well and do include him. Even if only as a cheerleader or as someone to react to Dean's new relationship. At worst, most of them just write him out, put him up in a new pairing or something like that.

I guess it's that I've gotten so used to the lack of Sam bashing in most Dean/Cas fics, that seeing it in this one just shocked me more.
coronasunrise From: coronasunrise Date: May 9th, 2011 09:35 pm (UTC) (Link)
Some people don't like Sam, that is really ok. I personally dislike Sam that is why I love Castiel. It was fairly clear that it was OTP fic you were talking about. Personally, I'm loving it. If you like Sam then don't read fic that has Sam acting out his more jerkish qualities.

Considering when OTP started that fic Sam is really not that OOC.
liliaeth From: liliaeth Date: May 11th, 2011 08:45 am (UTC) (Link)
I tend to find character bashing one of the lowest forms of fic writing. It's a thing, I've just seen too much of it, both in Highlander fics that bashed Duncan or Cassandra, or even worse in Buffy fics where the bashing is rampant as hell.

To me, charbashing doesn't just makes the bashed character look bad, but it has an even worse effect on the characters the writer does like, because they come out looking even worse.

It's one of the main reasons that I avoid writing Willow when I write buffy fic, because I know I'd have a hard time not to bash her. And personally I'd rather see a character pushed aside or ignored, than to see them written out of character and insulted by the other characters.

That and the fic has so much potential to be good, if only for this one huuuuuge flaw where the bashing is concerned.
ladypeyton From: ladypeyton Date: May 10th, 2011 05:32 pm (UTC) (Link)
I hate people who bash either Sam or Dean. They make me sick. I'm also still extremely glad I avoid SPN fandom like the plague. Attacking someone in their own journal simply because you suspect they are complaining about something you wrote is, to be honest, just a little nuts and just what I've seen happen over and over again in SPN fandom.

If one writes something and puts it on the web one opens oneself up to criticism. You acted completely correctly by not mentioning the fic or writer and by not linking to it. They went out of bounds when they came here to confront you about it.
liliaeth From: liliaeth Date: May 11th, 2011 08:46 am (UTC) (Link)
I guess there aren't that many epic spn fics with over eighty chapters in Dean/Cas fandom*g*.
ldarkfire From: ldarkfire Date: June 7th, 2011 11:12 pm (UTC) (Link)

I think

I don't know if I should say anything this late but well here it goes.

I too would like if there is something that explains Sam in this fic, I can't see it exactly as bashing because she didn't put anything that Sam wouldn't do under the right pressure, but i think that during the fic I've only seen the worst part of his character, all the good things that we love of Sam are missing and I hope there is a reason for this.

The thing is I can see Dean not seen anything wrong, the boys have been growing apart trough the seasons, and after all he would never have expected to see Sam drinking demons blood. I think is very possible that Dean doesn't trust his own point of view of Sam (After all he has been wrong before) And he is also hurt after what he hear.

Castiel point of view is the one that I can understand the most, when our loved ones are hurt we tend to lash out in their defense and think the worst of anyone who we believe are responsible. Cas has been there only for the worst part of the boys lives and that can influence the way he sees Sam, so he would not view Sam's behavior as strange.

I think is obvious that I like this fic but I can see your point and I would like to see how it ends. Until then I can't decide if it is bashing or just part of the plot.

I would like to mention too that I really like some of your fic and comments, (the ones I have read), I just find it difficult to write comments because english is not my first language, I just couldn't resist this one.


varkelton From: varkelton Date: July 16th, 2011 09:30 pm (UTC) (Link)
Wow. the comments here kind of prove a point, don't you think?

At worst, most of them just write him out, put him up in a new pairing or something like that.

Happens all the time, and it makes me very, very sad. It's why I basically gave up on reading Dean/Cas. Sam/Dean/Cas still takes me to a happy place, though. :)
(Deleted comment)
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