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Genderbending in J2 fics confuses the hell out of me - Me myself and I
It's all about me
Genderbending in J2 fics confuses the hell out of me
I need someone to explain something to me.

I don't usually like J2 fics, though I'll wade into them if they're AU, or when I'm going through the spn kink meme. (I'm weak, what can I say).

But going through that last one I keep seeing requests and fills for something that well... baffles me, to put it quite simple.

Genderbent J2.

I mean... genderbent fictional char fic isn't really my thing either, but at least you can take that the character still stays the same, it's just their looks that change.

But with J2 in these kink memes, even if you assume you can get any character out of them with interviews and stuff, most of what little we know of them, is completely ignored in either prompts or fills. So all you have left of them is their name and their looks.

So why in gods name would you remove even the looks part of that equation?

What do these genderbent RPF fics still have to do with Supernatural at all?

They no longer look like Jensen and Jared, they sure as hell don't act like them and they're not in the situation that the actors are. So really all that's left is an original char called Jennie getting fucked. Which might be what some people are looking for (not really me, cause I prefer my girls to be on top), but I just don't see why people ask for it on a spn kink meme, when there's just no connection whatsoever with the series left?

If you want one of the J's with an oc, why not just ask for said J/OC fic? Or hell, pair them up with any of the random actreses who were on the show, the char you're asking for has just about the same level of connection...

Can anyone explain this one to me?
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jolly_ferocity From: jolly_ferocity Date: April 10th, 2011 05:10 pm (UTC) (Link)
No, can't really explain it, but maybe it's some variation of a 'soul mates' concept?
Mostly just came by to comment because the "I'm weak, what can I say" line cracked me up.
liliaeth From: liliaeth Date: April 10th, 2011 05:14 pm (UTC) (Link)
It's the non-con, dub-con thing, I'll read almost anything with that in it, regardless of whom it's about*g* And when they add slavery to the list of kinks, I'm instantly sold*g*
sonnygrl11 From: sonnygrl11 Date: April 10th, 2011 05:16 pm (UTC) (Link)
While I do sympathize right along with you--I am like you... if I need a girl or a young woman to be with the J's or even Sam or Dean... I'd just as soon use someone from the J's lives or the SPN cast... or simply create my own original character and weave her how I need her presence in my story.

I think why most people do this gender-bend or gender-swap has NOTHING to do with sexual parts and/or organs... but EVERYTHING to do with character. You know... who Jared is, the kind of life he's led... who Jensen is, the people he loves who love him and what he's done in his career... the same goes for Sam and/or Dean... they want a girl!Sam who acts like her male counterpart, who dresses like he does and has the same color hair and puppy-dog eyes... or the girl!Dean who's tried to live up to Daddy's expectations and loves her younger brother and would die for him... but then attribute everything to a girl's way of life, but in smaller ways she's still "Dean"... the essence of who Dean is...

I would simply--like I mention above--write myself a really cool original female character if one didn't already exist within the SPN world and give her similar qualities to Sam or Dean or the J's... than turn Sam, Dean or the J's into a girl with their human qualities, character and mannerisms... I think the sexuality or sexual organs/parts are just a bonus, 'cuz now they can have a peg that fits into a hole... hehehe (sorry)... rather than two pegs and keep trying to re-imagine ways in which to make them "fit" (have sex).

I don't know, did that give you somewhat of an answer that makes it a little clearer why people like this sort of thing?

I could be completely missing the point... and some people simply wanna turn Sam and Dean into girls/young women so they can write FemmeSlash legitimately (to avoid Het pairings), but pair them with female characters... you know, since most of the female cast of SPN dies off... But, again, you can still say the writers of these fics want to pair a Dean-like girl or a Sam-like girl with a female cast member, or one of the J's as a girl with the many women they've known in their lives.

hope that helped a little and didn't confuse you more...:O)
liliaeth From: liliaeth Date: April 10th, 2011 05:22 pm (UTC) (Link)
Thing is, I can understand genderbending when it involves actual characters. It's not really my thing, but I've previously enjoyed fics that go with the idea of 'what if Dean (or Sam) was a girl' and then move on from there.

It's just the genderbent J2 that I don't get, esp. in these kink memes, because well, I'm pretty sure Jared isn't an evil businessman/coldhearted neigbor/perverted teacher/... or anything like that, just like Jensen isn't the sweet naive innocent little girl who's never even thought about sex... (or the other way around)

I mean, if the characters aren't there, you can at least say, that people are just recasting the boys in their new story, but when even the looks are gone, then where's the connection?
sonnygrl11 From: sonnygrl11 Date: April 10th, 2011 05:39 pm (UTC) (Link)
Yeah... I do see what you mean. Maybe because it IS the *kink-meme* some people just have a fetish for straight porn... or maybe wanna see the J's as girls get it on in Femmeslash. But, like you said, why not just write a woman? Once you turn them into girls--for me... you've taken away the most important element of why I like Jared and Jensen... 'cuz now they're just women, not men.

It could just be a *sexual* thing for the kink-meme...

I don't normally see genderbend/swap in the J2 fandom or read it. I see it more inside the SPN fandom for Sam, Dean... a lot more recently of Castiel and bringing back Claire (Jimmy Novak's daughter) in placement of actually turning Castiel into a girl. I can understand SPN fandom using the swap/bend as a story premise better than in RPF/RPS... 'cuz stranger things have happened in the supernatural world that can bring about Sam and Dean changing into women accidentally or because of some crazy-as-hell curse. But then again, there have been some pretty crack-y RPF/RPS fics being done that turn the J's into sex toys... store mannequins... My Little Ponies... unicorns... forest animals... so, well... I don't know about those, 'cuz they're just crack-fic fulfillment.

I think we're both agreeing and unable to find a legitimate explanation for any of it. I like who I like because they are who they are. I don't know if I'd ever attempt a genderswap/bend because I'm too invested in Sam/Dean and the J's.

hells_half_acre From: hells_half_acre Date: April 10th, 2011 05:26 pm (UTC) (Link)
I'm going to be cynical for a second and tell you why I think it is:

I think it's because there are no original-fic kinkmemes. If someone has a kink for, I don't know, bastard!Dude rapes virgin!female!secretary, and they want someone to write it for them - or they want to write it and have an AUDIENCE for it - then they're going to try to weave it into the fanfiction world. Because no one is interested in bastard!Dude and virgin!female!secretary, but people ARE interested in Jared and Jensen.

It's really the same with non-kinky romances.

For instance, among those that follow me on LJ, most people really like my writing (or at least tell me they do). So, the other week, out of curiosity, I asked how many people would be interested in original-fic from me. Now, more people than I thought said yes, but out of the 26 people that participated, 5 people still said that they're only interested in my fanfiction writing, and 3 people avoided the question altogether (which in my mind means that they aren't interested either and just didn't want to admit it to me).

So, yeah, that's where genderbending J2 comes from. People want Het, but they know that A)Het is not popular. B)OFC's are not popular, and C)They will get more interesting in their story/prompt if it contains some form of the names Jared and Jensen.

I'm trying to write a novel currently, and one of the storylines involves two gay boys. If I posted it and wrote their names as Jared and Jensen and never described what they looked like, I'd get WAY more readership than if I posted it and called them Vincent and Seth.
liliaeth From: liliaeth Date: April 10th, 2011 06:04 pm (UTC) (Link)
the worst part is that you're probably right. Maybe people should just start an original fic kink meme*g* Because there are more people actually interested in this stuff than that might admit it, just looking at the amount of these kind of prompts and responses to them, going around.
cherrymmm From: cherrymmm Date: April 10th, 2011 06:30 pm (UTC) (Link)
Just for clarity, you are asking about fics that are AU and have J2 having always been female? Or are you including when one of them accidently gets turned into a girl by a spell or something? I enjoy the accidental, brief stint as a girl fic but I don't generally read the other.
liliaeth From: liliaeth Date: April 10th, 2011 06:42 pm (UTC) (Link)
No, I mean the ones where one, or both of them (though those are rare), has always been female.

I don't think I've seen the other in J2 AU or at least not as often.
cherrymmm From: cherrymmm Date: April 10th, 2011 09:20 pm (UTC) (Link)
Hmmm...can't explain the reason behind the genderbending of J2. I don't read that cuz it's not my thing. I can understand making Sam or Dean a girl and exploring the differences in that family dynamic. But other then that, meh. Not my cuppa tea.
lilacsigil From: lilacsigil Date: April 10th, 2011 08:20 pm (UTC) (Link)
I'm not an RPF reader, so I have to ask why is "Jared and Jensen are girls" so different from, say, "Jared and Jensen are firefighters"?
liliaeth From: liliaeth Date: April 11th, 2011 12:58 am (UTC) (Link)
Well I'm not much of a fan of either. But at least with the Jared and Jensen are firefighters, you can assume that the story is well imo an original story where Jared and Jensen get cast in the roles of said firefighters.

While with the Jared and/or Jensen are girls fic (and I'm esp. talking about the ones you get in kink memes), you have neither the characters, nor the personality, nor the looks. So basically, why bother still calling them Jared and Jensen when there's nothing of either men left in the story?
lilacsigil From: lilacsigil Date: April 11th, 2011 01:00 am (UTC) (Link)
Maybe people like to imagine how they look as girls? I think "Jared as a girl" would be visually different to "random girl".
liliaeth From: liliaeth Date: April 11th, 2011 01:12 am (UTC) (Link)
I don't tend to think so, because they always seem to assume that Jared as a girl is attractive. While quite honestly, Jared as a guy is handsome, Jared as a girl, looking similar enough to be seen as the same person would not be the least bit attractive. (but then I have the same question with crossdressed Jensen and Jared which are described as being seen as hot girls, which imo would not at all be the case. Talking here about how a lot of writers have guys looking at either of the boys in drag and not instantly either realize they're men or you know, finding them hot, which tends to make me go huh? what?)

The main thing being that both Jensen and Jared are very masculine and in order to turn them into attractive women, you really have to change a lot about their looks, meaning that pretty much that connection is gone. (more so even with Jared than with Jensen)
lilacsigil From: lilacsigil Date: April 11th, 2011 01:26 am (UTC) (Link)
Hey, I find tall, muscled, sporty women with firm jaws highly attractive! I watch Olympic volleyball and hockey for that type! Younger Jensen in Dark Angel has a very feminine face, so I can see him as a conventionally attractive woman pretty easily. I wouldn't associate "finding men in drag hot" with "mistaking men in drag for women", though - that's two different things.

I don't know, maybe their looks are a sticking point for you but not for other people? It's something I don't have problems imagining, even if it's not something I'm particularly interested in reading.
liliaeth From: liliaeth Date: April 11th, 2011 01:58 am (UTC) (Link)
I guess it's a taste thing*g* (admittedly, I don't find Jared's own face all that attractive, though I understand that other people do, exactly because his jaw is way too broad for my tastes)

With the crossdressing, it'd be one thing if people mentioned they were hot guys in drag, but in most of those fics you have strangers treating them as hot girls, never even realizing they are men. (the worst of which was a fic where Buffy and Faith were dressed in drag as Dean and Sam and a girl couldn't tell the difference between Buffy as Dean and Dean himself... I mean, seriously, he's got at least a ft on her in size (and that's at least)

It'd be one thing if these crossdressing fics had the guys as teenagers or early twenties, but can you imagine 30 year old Jensen dressed in drag and being seen as a hot chick, with no one even thinking that he might be a guy in drag? Or present day Jared, with that jaw?
lilacsigil From: lilacsigil Date: April 11th, 2011 02:37 am (UTC) (Link)
30 year old Jensen dressed in drag and being seen as a hot chick, with no one even thinking that he might be a guy in drag? Or present day Jared, with that jaw?

Well, that is a bit odd, I have to say. And so is the Buffy and Faith thing! There'd have to be a lot of work on the author's part to make me suspend disbelief - a lot more than in a straightfoward "Jensen was always a girl" premise. But I do think there's a difference between an unusual premise that's then followed through well and a not-particularly-unusual premise that's followed through badly.
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