Two of my fave boyss
Supernatural 516 - Me myself and I
It's all about me
Supernatural 516

I know, I'm being a Pollyanna again, but am I the only person who is still trying to see the best in Sam?

I've read several reviews now and none of them seem to see what I saw, which is Zachariah messing with Dean's head. Is it really a coincidence that of all Sam's happy memories we got to see, that all of them where about leaving his family? Seriously?

Are people forgetting that it's made clear several times over that in heaven Zachariah could pretty much change their perceptions, let them see whatever memories he wants them to see.

Sure there's the scene with the physical torture,but come on, that's just a distraction. The real torture he was putting Dean through, was the memories of Sam that he allowed Dean to see, handpicking those particular happy moments of Sam's life that didn't involve Sam's family.

And then he rams it in with a hammer in the scene with Mary, as if he's shouting at Dean: "see you should just stop loving Sam and stop trusting in him, cause all he wants to do, all anyone wants to do, is leave you!"

I'm not a Sam girl, Dean's my fave and always has been, so I'm not just saying this because I want to see the best in Sam. But still, this seemed kinda obvious to me.

And wasn't little Sammy cute as always?

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aaronlisa From: aaronlisa Date: April 2nd, 2010 02:20 am (UTC) (Link)
There was definitely a theme in their memories and I think that you're absolutely right in saying that Zachariah directed them where he wanted them to be. What a better way to drive a wedge between them but to highlight the memories that would divide them: Dean's happy & perfect familial moments and Sam's desire to have a normal life.

I even wonder if Ash and Pamela were really them or if it was like Mary? I mean we have proof that Zachariah can control things right there and the whole "give Michael a chance" bit on Pamela's part? It didn't sound right for me.

I don't think you're being a Pollyanna. I, like you, am a total Dean!girl but I think your point was rather obvious.
liliaeth From: liliaeth Date: April 2nd, 2010 02:38 am (UTC) (Link)
Exactly, the way Pam was acting... it's like listening to an advertisement for heaven. A whole, 'don't worry about the people dying, they'll end up in heaven and be perfectly happy'

Added to the way that Pam mostly focused on Dean and barely paid attention to Sam... I really seriously doubt that was the real Pamela. Or at the very least, that she was entirely in control of what she was saying.
tealeyes From: tealeyes Date: April 2nd, 2010 02:32 am (UTC) (Link)

us pollyannas gotta stick together.

you are definitely NOT alone.
i still believe in the goodness of Sam. he's trying to find redemption...aren't we all?
and yes, i have also noticed that even in the real world, DEAN is the one being directly attacked by the angels AND demons... which could end up badly for Sam indirectly.

and Zachariah is a Manipulative, PETTY bastard- so he's going to do anything and everything to get Dean to say yes to Michael. And i suppose he wants Sam to say yes to Lucifer so they could play out the final battle.

and, dude, lil' Sammy was soo freaking adorable!!!!!
liliaeth From: liliaeth Date: April 2nd, 2010 02:39 am (UTC) (Link)

Re: us pollyannas gotta stick together.

Exactly, it makes no sense for Zachariah not to be messing with them from the start. Remember, Zachariah's a higher up in heaven, he's supposed to be smart, if all the torture he planned to put them through was 'physical' he wouldn't be very good at his job,now would he?
hells_half_acre From: hells_half_acre Date: April 2nd, 2010 03:49 am (UTC) (Link)
I completely agree about the memories being deliberate and part of Zach's plan! It just works far too well to his advantage to be otherwise.
liliaeth From: liliaeth Date: April 2nd, 2010 04:32 am (UTC) (Link)
exactly, hell, I'm pretty much convinced he only pretended to be looking for them, because it made it easier for him to send them from one place to the other. If he didn't, then well they might stick around and talk to one another.
ellie_234 From: ellie_234 Date: April 2nd, 2010 08:04 am (UTC) (Link)
There isnt a need to defend Sam because he didnt do anything wrong it was Deans that was wrong.Sam doesnt need to apologize for his memories because they dont involve Dean nor apologize for who he is.Sam memories didnt surprise me considering his upbringing. Dean now thinks Sam isnt entitled to have memories unless they involve him? and his self pitying martydom act is tiresome . He pulled Sam out of heaven when he made the deal and he couldnt of cared less and its clear to me he doesnt love Sam without conditions I love the Sam I approve of , that worships me . Sam should never have to humble himself for happy memories of any sort of or for being himself.
Dean was in the wrong last night not Sam and I come to realize what Dean is .
liliaeth From: liliaeth Date: April 2nd, 2010 01:06 pm (UTC) (Link)
Well I do understand why those memories were so heartbreaking for Dean. Sam might just have wanted to get away from their dad, but to Dean, that also meant getting away from him. Abandoning him.

Dean wasn't entirely in the wrong, but Zachariah was showing them the memories he did to get a specific response, which is for Dean to feel betrayed, which he understandably did.
scottishwhisky From: scottishwhisky Date: April 2nd, 2010 08:20 am (UTC) (Link)
Well thank God. I thought I was the only one trying to defend Sam.

You're absolutely right. It's entirely likely that Zachariah was messing with them the whole time. But even if he was, the way Dean was behaving made no sense. When they went into Dean's memory about Mary, Dean was basically "Sucks to be you, this is MY memory", and he didn't want to leave. I don't blame him for not wanting to leave, but he certainly didn't care that a.) His memory didn't involve Sam and b.) That his memory was hurting Sam. When they went to Sam's memories, I can understand that Dean would be hurt, I really can. But why he didn't look at them and see them as what they were, which is sad, I don't know. If Dean's willing to believe that those are happy memories for Sam, and they involve running away and squatting in what looked like an abandoned trailer, and being kicked out of his own family by his father for wanting to go to school, that is horribly sad. Sam has no memories of a normal home, or a loving mother. Dean got almost five years of that. Sam got nothing. And where was Jessica? I would have thought that at least one of Sam's memories would have included her.

But all Dean saw, and cared about, was that he wasn't in those memories, therefore Sam is an ungrateful jerk who hates his family. That seems self centered to me. Very self centered. And then the bit at the end where he threw the amulet away, knowing Sam was watching, that was just hateful. I went from "Oh Dean" during the first half of the episode to putting him on my shit list by the end. I'm so sick of them manufacturing angst between the brothers.

Edited at 2010-04-02 12:20 pm (UTC)
liliaeth From: liliaeth Date: April 2nd, 2010 01:08 pm (UTC) (Link)
Actually Dean's problem wasn't that he wasn't in Sam's memories. It was that every single one of Sam's memories that they saw, was about Sam leaving his family and getting away from them. From the thanksgiving dinner, with another family, to the running away from home, seemingly not caring one bit about how that must have scared the hell out of his brother, to going away to Stanford.

In and of themselves, none of those memories are bad. But put together as they were, and I'm sure, handpicked by Zachariah as they were, they supported Zach's point that Sam just wanted to leave Dean.
(Deleted comment)
liliaeth From: liliaeth Date: April 2nd, 2010 01:10 pm (UTC) (Link)
Hmm, I do think this was really heaven, but that doesn't mean it wasn't all about getting Dean under enough control to get him to say 'yes'
jackfan2 From: jackfan2 Date: April 2nd, 2010 10:32 am (UTC) (Link)

Most of my friends are Dean girls, as am I, and while my heart broke for Dean, utterly shattered for him, I could not. NOT, feel the same, intense level of anger toward Sam that all my friends seem to have adopted.

I too felt that, while the memories were real, they were hand-picked by Zachariah, aimed at breaking the boys up. Zach knows, as it's in the Bible (Matthew, I think) 'A house divided against itself will surely fall' and the boys ARE one another's weakness. HE DID THIS ON PURPOSE! He drove it home with memory-Mary making sure Dean got the point that they all leave him, just as Sammy did. Ugh. I just broke apart.

I don't fault Dean for feeling the feelings he felt either. For the anger. For the disappointment- he was very emotionally vulnerable going into this situation to begin with, and Zach added the wind necessary to topple his house of cards. The bastard.

Maybe it would've been better if Sam had been all 'Oh Dean, I am so sorry for what I put you through, I really am' and maybe I harbor just a little pithiness against him for not reaching out to Dean, letting him know he was sorry, but you know, it's a show. This was the catalyst to move the boys apart again.

Dean's sinking, but Sam's remaining firm, I've noticed that too. I think that Dean will say yes to Michael before Sam has a chance to say yes to Lucifer, and in truth, I'm beginning to doubt that Sam will EVER say yes to Lucifer. Hmm...

Anywho, my heart's in pieces for both boys, and like Castiel cursed God (ugh.. that was a killer moment too) by the end of the show I was cursing Kripke (only because that ep was sheer genius). I think Sam will have dug that medallion out of the trash and by the end of the finale, he'll give it back to Dean.

God that was such a hard ep to watch. *sniffle* And it kills me further to see our Dean!camps and Sam!camps divided. Much as I'm a Dean girl, what makes Dean DEAN is his relationship with Sam. I can't separate the two in my head. They are conjoined twins in my heart.

OH! But that kiss with Pamela (licks tv screen) GODDAMN! HOT! (and that conversation with Pamela.. hmm.. I think that was all Zachariah's doing too, as well as Ash's appearance. Zach allowed it. All of it.

Any who.. after last night:
scottishwhisky From: scottishwhisky Date: April 2nd, 2010 10:48 am (UTC) (Link)
I'm not quite sure what to make of all the prefacing of comments with assurances that the poster is, in fact, a Dean girl. To me that implies that somehow a person's opinions or observations are worth more, or are more important, if said person is a Dean girl. Hopefully that's not what it means.

"Maybe it would've been better if Sam had been all 'Oh Dean, I am so sorry for what I put you through, I really am' and maybe I harbor just a little pithiness against him for not reaching out to Dean, letting him know he was sorry, but you know, it's a show."

I think Sam did apologize, if I remember correctly, but I could only bring myself to sit through this one once so I'm probably wrong. Sam might have been more likely to make a big apology though, if he hadn't had his head taken off repeatedly in Sympathy for the Devil, and if Dean hadn't told him that there was nothing he could do to make things right between them. I don't think it's terribly surprising that he couldn't muster the effort this time. I'm not saying that he shouldn't have tried, just that I don't really blame him for not doing it. Another thing that is being ignored is that for all his preaching to Sam about family, the only memory of Dean's that Sam saw had everything to do with their mother and nothing to do with him, so maybe he wasn't really feeling the brotherly love either.

And if I were Sam, I don't know that I would give the amulet back after what Dean did with it. That was cruel. Sam is a bigger person than I am, I think (physically he certainly is, but emotionally as well) so I won't be surprised if he does in fact give it back. I just want them to be brothers again, and for them to quit falling for Zachariah's crap. I'm a Sam girl, obviously (and I've probably just rendered my opinion null and void by admitting that) but like you, I like them best together, because they're a part of each other. Sam isn't Sam without Dean, and I'm so tired of the show forcing the brothers apart.
datenshiblue From: datenshiblue Date: April 2nd, 2010 11:15 am (UTC) (Link)
Sam's memories broke my heart, more than Dean's did. Dean had the PB&J sandwiches, the mother's love, the toy cars... He had the worship of his little brother. And I know it wasn't all wonderful either (which makes me suspicious that as you said, Zachariah was orchestrating), he remembered that Mary was distressed by fighting with John.

Sam had escape. Freedom, not from his family but from the fear and oppression of his life at "home".

That kind of home life doesn't make you love your family less, and I know what I'm talking about. But it does make you crave freedom from the conflicts inherent in that life.

Sam... Sam had a dog. For two weeks.

That killed me dead, right there.

I feel bad for Dean, for Castiel... the aggressiveness of Zachariah's pursuit is horrifying. But do I feel Sam was hurt any less? No.

No apologies for Sam. To those who are petty enough to fault him for his life, his struggle, to call him selfish for wanting freedom, there is no defense. Which is fine.

Was I the only one who woke up today and thought... April Fools?
liliaeth From: liliaeth Date: April 2nd, 2010 01:22 pm (UTC) (Link)
Oh they were both heartbreaking, Dean's because you realize that that scene with his mother is one of the last ones he has in which he can truly be a child. It's so shortly before he loses his childhood and has to start growing up. Sam's were heartbreaking, that scene with the dog in particular.

kate_mct From: kate_mct Date: April 2nd, 2010 11:40 am (UTC) (Link)
I saw it too, though I am a Sam girl. Zac was seriously messing with Dean. Of all Sam's memories, those were the ONLY good ones? Not buying it. I said last night that if Dean were to walk through Sam's memories with no angel interference, things would be different.
liliaeth From: liliaeth Date: April 2nd, 2010 01:23 pm (UTC) (Link)
Oh definitely, Sam's memories were simply too similar for them not to be handpicked out to serve exactly the purpose of making Dean lose faith in Sam.
ancastar From: ancastar Date: April 2nd, 2010 12:25 pm (UTC) (Link)
See...I don't think Zachariah is messing with what the guys saw or experienced (though I realize many folks do). But I also don't think what Sam was experiencing as "happy" memories was as damning as some people do.

He's a kid who longed for freedom and "normal" as soon as he understood what those concepts meant. So, of course he's going to think about his first true Thanksgiving and/or the wonderful adventure he'd had when he ran away (because it seems like nothing bad happened to him when he took off). He had no control over what memories come to life. And when he realizes they're getting ready to experience his leaving for Stanford, he tries to spare Dean. He's not intentionally being cruel. He's done nothing wrong. He just wanted different things. And how tragic is it that all it took to make Sam happy was an awkward Thanksgiving dinner and a lousy trailer in the middle of nowhere with a golden retriever as his only friend?

It seems to me that because of how he's been wounded over time, Dean can't see past his perceived rejection by Sam. What he doesn't realize is Sam has never rejected him. We only saw a handful of "happy" memories. What about Jess? We never see Sam think of her, but you know she brought him joy. If the boys had stayed around Heaven long enough, we (and Dean) would have seen moments from Sam's life that included Dean. I have faith in that. Sadly, after all he's been through, Dean doesn't right now.
liliaeth From: liliaeth Date: April 2nd, 2010 01:02 pm (UTC) (Link)
Oh I'm not saying that Sam's memories weren't real, or that they were any less valid. In many ways they were sad as hell, that just being gone from his dad and having a dog is one of his happier memories is heart breaking. But I do think that Zachariah handpicked through his memories and picked out those that he know would be most devastating for Dean to see, especially out of context. Not to mention that would aid him in making his point that everyone left Dean eventually. (and considering how bad Dean's self esteem already is...)
phanie28 From: phanie28 Date: April 2nd, 2010 12:36 pm (UTC) (Link)
Thank you! You are totally right about this. Sam is not a bad guy, neither is Dean and everyone is trying to mess with them so that they'll end up saying yes. That whole trip in Heaven was all Zachariah's doing and I'm sure that Sam has much more really fond beautiful memories involving Dean and how Dean has always been there for him than anything else. Zachariah was clever (in his own evil way) to not show those to Dean. To me poor Sam is the only one who's not willing to give up that easily right now, he's the one who has hope and maybe even faith. They put the emphasis on Dean having lost his faith still Dean has had more faith lately than ever before and I'm sure Sam never lost his.
liliaeth From: liliaeth Date: April 2nd, 2010 01:36 pm (UTC) (Link)
I honestly don't see the point of hating either of the brothers*g*
jessm78 From: jessm78 Date: April 2nd, 2010 03:35 pm (UTC) (Link)
Very good point! Out of all the reviews I've seen today, a good many of them were from Sam fans who were hating on Dean, and then Dean fans hating on Sam. I'm more of a Sam girl, but I try to be fair to both boys ('cause I *do* love them both) and see things from both their POVs. But yeah, I totally agree. I got the feeling that Zachariah was messing with Dean's head. I mean come on, Sam had to have happy memories involving his family too. It was pretty interesting that the only ones we got to see were about him leaving them. I think Zachariah had something to do with that, trying to get Dean closer to saying yes.

Little Sammy was just adorable! Colin Ford is so awesome in the role :D
From: roadtripper666 Date: April 3rd, 2010 08:23 am (UTC) (Link)
Im still rooting for Sammy. I am a Dean girl but I still have a huge thing for Sam. I believe he's just that innocent lil brother that lost his way. And yeah I agree with you on the whole Zach thing. It was a low blow but the angels want Mike in Dean's meatsuit and if Dean has nothing left to live for; Sam doesnt love him (well thats what Dean now thinks), God doesnt give a crap, Cas has given up, well then maybe the angels think he'll say yes. Its all part of breaking him down I reckon.
yumezaka From: yumezaka Date: April 7th, 2010 01:16 pm (UTC) (Link)
I'm glad to see that not all people are mad at Sam.
I thought it was just a sibling thing.
When parents aren't around much and you have siblings with an age difference, the older ones are often taken for granted.

I remember joking about our childhood with my brothers(6 and 10 years younger)once and suddenly they went all serious and said;
"We never knew how big you are in our lives until we grew up."
They say that "being around from the beginning" and "always being there(when the parents are not)" tend to lead to taking the older for granted.

Even Sam in season 1 seemed to be rediscovering Dean, so I thought it was just the psychology of the younger sibling. I'm pretty sure Sam's adult memories consist mostly of Dean.

I must say the uproar has surprised me. I mean, I understand a bit of negativity but it seems there are a lot more than I expected.

Excuse my long babble. I'm just glad you posted a good point.
And little Sammy was indeed cute.
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