Two of my fave boyss
Chloe rant with a side order of Dean/Castiel and J2 and comparisons to Buffy fandom - Me myself and I
It's all about me
Chloe rant with a side order of Dean/Castiel and J2 and comparisons to Buffy fandom
1. First things first, I like Chloe. She's a great character on Smallville and loads of fun to see with Clark, but....

I have zero interest whatsoever in Chloe centric crossovers that focus solely on Chloe.

It's like Xander centric Buffy crossovers that don't have any of the other scoobies (or you know, even more importantly, Spike) in them.

It often feels as if stories like that aren't even crossovers.

Far too many of them seem to be centered around using Chloe (or in some cases Lois) as a stand in for an OC, because of the bad name that most OC's have in fandom. Far too often the character doesn't feel like Chloe (or Lois), the stories don't use Clark, or if they do, it's only in a very minor supporting role with little or no prominence paid to Clark's powers.

I don't know, for me, Smallville is and always has been, the story of Clark Kent. Chloe's a nice supporting character, but she's not the point of the show, she's not the reason to watch it and she's not what Smallville is all about. Now I don't mind Chloe centric stories, but if I read those, then I want them to be about the Chloe on the show. And that includes her connection to Clark.

Because as I just mentioned, it's all about Clark.

Now I'll admit, I'm a bit of a hypocrite.*g* My focus in Buffy fandom is Spike, Buffy comes a close second, but Spike's the main reason I watch Buffy. But at least he's still a vampire and thus part of the focus on the show. And though I prefer fics that have Buffy and the scoobies as well as Spike, but more importantly than that, when I do read Spike fics, I need the background he comes from. AU fics that just have Spike and that exclude his background don't interest me. I don't want to read au human fics, because they ignore the main focus of what Buffy fics should be about. (Spike or no Spike)

And to be entirely honest, I think it's that more than the Chloe centricness itself that annoys me about most Chloe crossovers. Because they ignore what makes Chloe interesting. (her being best friends with the boy/man who will become Superman) and turn her just into a Mary Sue investigative reporter.

I wouldn't even mind Dean/Chloe fics so much, if they used it as an outside pov on the Winchesters. But most of them seem to be an excuse to just ignore over half of the story, and just throw a ten in a dozen type of blond at Dean and expect us to just see it as a huge romance. Not because we get to know what Dean would see in Chloe. (because we're supposed to like her without anything shown as a reason why we should) But because it's 'Chloe'.

I wouldn't want to read a Spike/any char in any fandom fic, if you don't give me a reason why the character would get together with Spike. (no matter how hot he is) and I wouldn't want any such thing from either Chloe or Dean.

2. And then there's my second problem. I want to like Dean/Castiel. I want to like Dean in slash relationships that aren't with Sam. But damn it. Write Dean with Castiel, not with bland lover boy who's totally in love with him...

What makes Castiel interesting is his inhumanity, his otherness... His devotion to God and to Dean are a part of that and they shouldn't just be written as a romance where them ending up in bed together is the beginning and the end of the story.

I like Spike/Angel because it's more than just two hot guys together. I like them because of their bond, because of the vampireness, because it makes them more than just two guys.

In the same way, I like Dean/Castiel not because Dean and Cas are hot, but because they're a hunter and an angel.So if you take that specialness, that otherness away. And make them just regular people, then the story goes away with it.

I like that Dean is Sam's brother, John's son, he's the guy who gave up his soul to save his brother and hated his father for doing the same thing for him. I love that Cas wanted to obey God more than anything and that it was a struggle for him to start to doubt.

I love that there's more in their life than just the other. If all they had in the life was the other guy, they'd be boring and just standard fill in the blanks fic. And I'm not interested in that kind of stories.

3. And that brings us to my last annoyance. J2 fic.

Yeah I know it's popular as hell in SPN fandom. And I just don't get why. Most of it isn't even about Jensen and Jared. Not really. Ninety percent of J2 fics seem to be little more than original fic with two characters who look like the main stars of Supernatural.

I have nothing against original slash. Hell, I love reading original stories. But if you do, at least have the guts to admit it and call it what it is. That and I really really don't get what makes it so popular. Yes, the boys are hot, but come on, ... what's so interesting to read about two regular guys? And if you make them supernatural beings... why claim it's the actors. Why not just say you're writing an original sci fi fantasy story?

I guess it's easier to write J2 fics, since well it's not really based on anything and no one knows them enough, so you don't have to worry too much about characterization. While on the flip side. People do have a basic idea of what they think the boys are like, so they fill in the blanks themselves, which makes such stories less than they could be if the writers were willing to go full out and just write them as original characters.

I guess that J2 fic are pretty much the SPN version of Human AU highschool fics in Buffy fandom. And quite honestly, I personally have no interest in either of the two.

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bogwitch From: bogwitch Date: August 4th, 2009 07:40 am (UTC) (Link)
The only difference between J2 and human AU is that the cool people have decided it's acceptable.
liliaeth From: liliaeth Date: August 4th, 2009 08:06 am (UTC) (Link)
that too. hell most of these fics aren't even RPF, because the majority of them aren't even about the actual actors. They're just about two guys who use the actors' names.
miss_tress From: miss_tress Date: August 4th, 2009 07:49 am (UTC) (Link)
The thing I don't like about a majority of Chloe-centric crossovers is that they seem to exist solely as a way give a boyfriend who is awesome and cool since the "dumb" writers won't let her date Clark on the show. And they all seem to start with one of the boys seeing her in the Talon and being instantly smitten.
liliaeth From: liliaeth Date: August 4th, 2009 08:04 am (UTC) (Link)
Exactly, and they never seem to bother with getting her with the other character naturally.

I mean, Dean's a great guy, but he's a womanizer. If he just saw Chloe in a bar or anywhere else for that matter, and got the hots for her, he'd sleep with her and then leave. It's what he does.

Most of these writers seem to forget this and just act as if he'd instantly fall in love with her and fall for her. It makes her look very Mary Sue like.

(That and half of these fics ignore the importance of Sam in Dean's life. Because he'd never ever pick anyone over Sam. Not even a woman he'd love)

It just feels like the writers are so convinced of Chloe's awesomeness, that they don't bother to show the readers why Chloe is supposed to be so aweome. (you know, other than having the other characters say just how awesome she is. If they aren't acting as if no one sees just how great she is)
miss_tress From: miss_tress Date: August 4th, 2009 11:45 pm (UTC) (Link)
*nods* I like Chloe because she's not always perfect. That's what makes characters interesting. So I'm flabbergasted that I see all this fic that features Chloe but isn't really about her. It's about some blond girl that is awesome at everything and who everyone loves.

And I just reread what you said about the J2 fic and I so totally agree. I started out being interested in it but so much of it just makes me want to tear my hair out. Most of it isn't really about Jared and Jensen and many of the authors have a tendency to just plug the names of other actors into parts without any thought to how that person "actually" is.
liliaeth From: liliaeth Date: August 5th, 2009 12:38 am (UTC) (Link)
And the worst part is that if you'd say something about it, they'd feel you hate Chloe. Which I don't. I just hate generic blond who's taken Chloe's place in fanon. Hell it's the same reason I dislike reading Xander crossovers. Most of them aren't about Xander, they're about hot young guy who's good at everything, has cool hyena powers and soldier knowledge and is so much more awesome than any of the girls in the show... and are thus boring as hell...

Why is it so hard for people who claim to love the regular characters in a show, to actually write said regular characters, instead of using those chars as a self insert. Because to me the only thing worse than a Mary Sue, is a Canon Sue. Because at least the Mary Sue actually still interacts with the canon chars, while the canon sue replaces the canon char and just throws the real char out of the story.

enigmaticblues From: enigmaticblues Date: August 4th, 2009 08:55 am (UTC) (Link)
I don't watch SV, so I can't comment on that part of your rant, but the other two parts? Hell yeah. I love reading Dean/Cas, but only when they actually resemble the two characters. And call me crazy, but I tend to think that Dean WOULD NOT fall into bed with a guy, if he ever slept with Castiel. I think he'd have a very hard time admitting that what he felt for the angel went beyond friendship.

(And, personally, I like the idea of a bromance between the two of them, even more than your traditional romance.)
liliaeth From: liliaeth Date: August 4th, 2009 09:04 am (UTC) (Link)
I have to agree on that one. I mean, we've seen enough of Dean to know that he flirts with any girl he thinks is hot. We've also had repeated references of him saying "he doesn't swing that way". Not in a way of, having anything against it with others. Just that he doesn't go that way.

Not that this has stopped any slash writer in the past. But if you want to write a fic with a canonically heterosexual char in a gay relationship, then do the effort of exploring that. Because in my opinion, it can only make the story more interesting and add tensions.
frelling_tralk From: frelling_tralk Date: August 4th, 2009 09:10 am (UTC) (Link)
I don't know, for me, Smallville is and always has been, the story of Clark Kent. Chloe's a nice supporting character, but she's not the point of the show, she's not the reason to watch it and she's not what Smallville is all about.

I get what you're saying, but then I see fan fic as fandoms way of telling their own story that interests them, even when it doesn't match up with what's on the show (i.e all of the Clex fic I used to read *g*). She's not the point of the show, but she can be used as the heroine in the stories being written about her

But then I do think that Chloe is often treated as a Mary Sue in fic, it's quite boggling the amount of men she is paired with. I've never got the popularity of Chlollie say because it's not like the two characters even interact all that much, same thing with the Dean/Chloe pairing which has had a LOT of fic and video's devoted to it. I've not read any of that fic but I wouldn't be surprised if she was being used as an authors self-insertion a lot of the time

And I can't disagree on J2 fic because I know exactly what you're saying *g* When I first got into SPN I was much more into reading fic with Sam and Dean and I was pretty shocked at the amount of J2 fic being produced, in many editions of the SPN newsletter there was more J2 fic written then there was SPN fic. I had very little interest in reading fic of their adventures on set as they fall in love, or whatever else. But as I got deeper into SPN fandom I discovered a lot of recs for more interesting J2 fic that was very AU and I started following them. I pretty much do consider it as reading original fic a lot of the time and understand why people don't get why it's classified as fic based on a pairing when most of the time the characterisation can be whatever people choose. But it's a lot easier to find a J2 story with a summary that sounds like something that would interest you, as opposed to seeking out original fic where I woudn't even know where to start

If any of that makes sense. It's really the sheer amount of fic you can find with J2 (and much of it is of a high quality) that appeals to me. It's not shippy fic I'm reading in order to satisfy my longing for the guys to get together, I find the SPN set based fic the most boring thing ever most of the time, it's more that I tend to read each fic as its own separate story most of the time. So yeah basically I found it puzzling at first until I discovered the sheer variety of fic being produced, and then kind of just dived right in there

Edited at 2009-08-04 01:11 pm (UTC)
liliaeth From: liliaeth Date: August 4th, 2009 09:34 am (UTC) (Link)
I get what you're saying, but then I see fan fic as fandoms way of telling their own story that interests them, even when it doesn't match up with what's on the show (i.e all of the Clex fic I used to read *g*). She's not the point of the show, but she can be used as the heroine in the stories being written about her

Oh I know, like I said, I'm a bit of a hypocrite on this one, since I watched both Buffy and Angel for Spike. Rather than for the main characters on either.

It's more that they don't just ignore the other characters, but that very often, Chloe then on top of that gets treated like a generic blond reporter char, instead of as the Chloe on the show. I don't know, she just gets so easily turned into a Mary Sue...

And yeah, I can see that seen as original fic, J2 fics can be pretty damn good. I guess it's just that when I'm looking through SPN fanfic, I just want to read fics about Sam and Dean... not original fic

If that makes any sense.

I guess it's more my problem than the J2 writers. But I'd rather have good writers write Sam and Dean fic, rather than to have to get invested in new characters who just happen to look like the boys.

Edited at 2009-08-04 01:36 pm (UTC)
frelling_tralk From: frelling_tralk Date: August 4th, 2009 09:44 am (UTC) (Link)
Oh absolutely I prefer reading SPN fic too. I find Dean a far more interesting character to read about than the weepy Jensen that a lot of J2 fic producers... Ditto Sam and all of his complex issues (plus evil Sam *drools*) appeals to me more than the fun-loving characterisation that Jarad generally gets. I'll still skip over J2 fics more often that not, unless the summary is something that catches my attention. But there are so many of them that I have inevitably started reading more and more J2 fics based on an interesting summary, it's a pretty huge fandom when it comes to finding the fic genre that you like

Actually I kind of got the impression that more J2 fic was being written once the rift between Sam and Dean began, I wasn't familiar with SPN fandom before season 4 but that's what people have been suggesting.

Edited at 2009-08-04 01:48 pm (UTC)
liliaeth From: liliaeth Date: August 4th, 2009 09:51 am (UTC) (Link)
But isn't half the fun about repairing the rift between Sam and Dean? If everything is already perfect between them, then you have less tension to work with in a fic.
frelling_tralk From: frelling_tralk Date: August 4th, 2009 09:54 am (UTC) (Link)
As a Clex fan I would have thought so, but what I've heard is that some SPN fans became frustrated at Sam and Dean no longer being as close as they were, and more J2 fic was produced at that time as people could make them as OTP as they liked in their fic

Oh and I do think it's a mistake to treat SPN fic and J2 fic as interchangeable. For instance there's spnstoryfinders for finding a fic where you'd think it would be SPN-related fic only as it pretty much says that in the profile, but it has just as many requests for J2. I really think that SPN fic and RPS should be treated as a seperate thing and get their own communities, but even rec lists seemed to have a mixture of the two

liliaeth From: liliaeth Date: August 4th, 2009 10:08 am (UTC) (Link)
hell as a Buffy/Spike, Spike/Angel, Spike/Xander and Spike/Giles shipper, with a side order of Methos/Duncan and Clark/Lex, I guess I've always had more interest in pairings that involved some kind of tension between the characters. I love the bond between Sam and Dean, and it's the very closeness between them, that makes the rift between them so interesting to read about.

It makes things more complex, and it makes them getting over the rift more interesting as well. Now I don't like wincest as a rule, but if I did, I'd want to have that tension between them, because since they already love one another, it gives you something to get over as part of the plot.

But then I've never really been into pwp's to begin with.
crimsonsenya From: crimsonsenya Date: August 4th, 2009 04:17 pm (UTC) (Link)
Oh my, I just recced a Dean/Castiel fic series on my journal. I think it might be something you'd like too. <lj user=holy_hands I suppose some people only read slash/fanfic for the smut, therefore everything else in a story is secondary. The problem with finding quality fanfic that maintains the characterizations as close to canon as possible is that you cannot tell for sure before you've started reading the fic and wading through a dozen fics for one gem takes time. Maybe people rather write AU RPS than original fiction because it's easier to find readers?
liliaeth From: liliaeth Date: August 5th, 2009 12:32 am (UTC) (Link)
I've been planning to read that one for a while, thanks for giving a link :-)

I never understand why rps fics would make it easier to find readers. You'd think that if you read fanfic about a show, that you'd want to read fics about the characters actually on the show...
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