Two of my fave boyss
Supernatural : Wincest - Me myself and I
It's all about me
Supernatural : Wincest
I hate wincest. I really do.

And I think one major reason was something I just read in a fic, that made me stop reading the second I read it.

"They weren't just brothers..."

Those four (well five) words say it all.

Wincest means to me that the authors don't realize just how important a bond of brothers truly is. Being brothers or sisters or family in general (blood or otherwise) is to me one of 'the' most important bonds a person can have. And in wincest or any other incest like pairing, that bond is treated like it's meaningless. It's twisted into something sexual and to me that diminishes the bond that's there.

It takes something that's core, deep, probably the greatest bond any two or more poeple can have and restricts it to something purely physical.

I hate wincest because to me, it wrecks the bond between the Winchesters and lessens it.

And no, it's not because it's slash, I feel the same way about Dawn/Spike, or Buffy/Giles or Buffy/Xander. (and those don't even have a blood relation.)

So yeah, I hate wincest, and I really truly wish that it didn't keep sneaking into fics that claim to be gen.
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aaronlisa From: aaronlisa Date: June 3rd, 2009 02:17 am (UTC) (Link)
Wincest bothers me on several levels. And I really hate it when it crops up in a fic that's supposed to be gen or some other pairing but Dean/Sam is in it (unlabeled at that.)

I am not sure if you've checked out the community that I co-mod with afteriwake for Supernatural fanfiction (spn_fanfic) but we both started it because we were getting sick of comms that were supposed to have a no Wincest/RPF policy that was allowing fic like that in. We also both run a very tight ship and quite actively police the community to ensure that authors aren't just slipping it in unawares because that's a huge pet peeve of ours.
bogwitch From: bogwitch Date: June 3rd, 2009 03:48 am (UTC) (Link)
Sounds like my kind of place.

I seems to me some writers are scared to write Gen. Maybe they think they'll lose their readership?
aaronlisa From: aaronlisa Date: June 3rd, 2009 08:14 am (UTC) (Link)
I think that might be a valid point for some authors.
bogwitch From: bogwitch Date: June 3rd, 2009 06:12 pm (UTC) (Link)
I find that very sad, especially when it doesn't need to be there.
enigmaticblues From: enigmaticblues Date: June 3rd, 2009 08:54 am (UTC) (Link)
I think that this is huge. I've noticed that for me, even though I tend to write shippy fic, I don't get the same level of reviews as those who write porn.

I have a very long rant in this arena.
bogwitch From: bogwitch Date: June 3rd, 2009 06:11 pm (UTC) (Link)
And writing Gen is even worse!

Are people really that obsessed with porn? I like a raunchy sex scene occasionally, but it gets so repetitive! (I suppose the answer is: yes!)

For all that I seem to have written a lot of it, I am not a natural shippy writer, and with the Buffy fandom especially, it feels that you had to pick a ship to find a place to fit. Supernatural's Gen is a lot stronger (in that it exists at all!), but I've noticed it diminishing (mainly under a tide of RPS (don't get me started on that subject) and Dean/Castiel) even in the couple of years I've hung around the fandom. I'm very much speculating, but it's almost as if all the slashers that couldn't face the incest finally found a ship they could work with.
liliaeth From: liliaeth Date: June 3rd, 2009 04:03 am (UTC) (Link)
coolest, just joined the com. Must be one I missed so far. I mostly joined the spn gen com in the hope to find wincest free fic. (but this'll be great since I like slash, just not incesty slah, hell the only place I tollerate incesty sort of slash is in vampire porn*eg*)
aaronlisa From: aaronlisa Date: June 3rd, 2009 08:15 am (UTC) (Link)
I think we started our comm in response to afteriwake coming across the same problem you did at spn_gen.
lilacsigil From: lilacsigil Date: June 3rd, 2009 03:14 am (UTC) (Link)
I don't hate wincest, although I rarely read it. I think it's a possibility but a very sad one, where Dean and Sam have absolutely no-one else left who could understand them and turn to each other out of loneliness. The brotherly bond is the most important thing in their lives but when it's the *only* thing in their lives, I can see things going horribly wrong and never going right again. That's one reason why I like secondary characters like Pamela, Bobby, Ellen and Castiel - when there's other people in their lives, Sam and Dean are happier.

Puppies and balloons happy wincest? Definitely not my thing.
liliaeth From: liliaeth Date: June 3rd, 2009 03:57 am (UTC) (Link)
See, that's the thing, I can see it happening, the boys are emotionally twisted enough for it. My main problem isn't with the idea of it being impossible, it's with the fact that most of the writers treat it like it's normal. Like it would be a healthy normal relationship and worst of all, they have people surrounding the brothers act the same way or excuse it. (or worst of all, even encourage them into it)

I've read fics where it's treated like the twisted fucked up thing is is, and those I can accept. But it's the puppies and balloons happy wincest that sort of sickens me.
bogwitch From: bogwitch Date: June 3rd, 2009 03:47 am (UTC) (Link)
There are many reasons I don't like slash, I could discuss them for hours, but they basically break down to 'not interested in endless porn'.

I agree that slash (and shippy fic of all types) tends to simplify relationships into purely sexual ones, but I have to say, while incest doesn't interest me whatsoever, Sam and Dean in their extreme emotional isolation and with their abnormal insular background, do at least present a plausible likelihood for the pairing to occur.
liliaeth From: liliaeth Date: June 3rd, 2009 04:01 am (UTC) (Link)
Yeah, I don't easily get the endless porn. A story needs to have more than that to interest me. (hell I'm always more interested in the emotional effects, while sex itself tends to bore me)

Thing for me with wincest isn't that it's impossible. Dean and Sam's life fucked them up so much, that yes I could see it happen. But... and this is the big thing for me. Most wincest writers don't treat wincest as the twisted sick thing is should be. They act as if it's ok, because they're guys and they can't have kids, so the fact that they're breaking a taboo just makes it hotter...

And I just don't go for that kind of stuff. If people write wincest and shows how it screws them up, then sure I'm willing to give it a try. Especially if there's emotional pay off. But unfortunately most of the stuff out there is the happy happy happy kind of fic, that treats the pairing like it's just two hot guys having sex.
bogwitch From: bogwitch Date: June 3rd, 2009 06:23 pm (UTC) (Link)
It takes a good writer to keep sex scenes from getting repetitive.

I got all this out of my system as a teenager writing original stuff, it's just very boring for me to write a straight sex scene now. I'll put them in if the story requires, but otherwise I need a new angle to explore if I'm going to bother (thus the tentacles).

I tend to avoid happy, happy fics of all flavours! I have been know to try wincest fics if they sound intriguing, but I tend to duck out as the porn starts, mostly (and I tend to perceive this in almost all the slash fics I've read) at the point the characterisation has to twist out of shape to accommodate a sexuality that doesn't belong canonically to the character.

Edited at 2009-06-03 11:09 pm (UTC)
From: dallin_dae Date: June 3rd, 2009 06:23 am (UTC) (Link)
I can't take incest fanfic full stop. I mean... it's incest.
liliaeth From: liliaeth Date: June 3rd, 2009 06:04 pm (UTC) (Link)
enigmaticblues From: enigmaticblues Date: June 3rd, 2009 08:59 am (UTC) (Link)
I just started reading SPN fic about a month or two ago, and while I knew about Wincest, and I knew it was all over, I had no idea how common it really was. I'm not big into the kink-heavy fics, and I'm not really into slash either, except under very rare circumstances. But it's the "oh, we're brothers and we love each other, let's have sex! That'll be cool!" that bothers me.

As I told a friend last night: Incest = Illegal + Icky. It's the rule of the three I's.
liliaeth From: liliaeth Date: June 3rd, 2009 06:07 pm (UTC) (Link)
I only started watching Supernatural less than a month back and while looking for fanfic, I keep stumbling over the wincest.

I'm a very accepting person, but if Dean and Sam weren't such interesting characters, I would ahve almost given up after all the wincest and RPF that I keep stumbling over.

(my main problem with RPF is that I'm not interested in the actors beyond looking at them play the characters, or gushing over how pretty they all are*eg*)

I don't want to read fics about Jared or Jensen, they're just regular people. What I care about is Dean and Sam and the world they live in. But I guess for a lot of people RPF has just become a form of human au.
bogwitch From: bogwitch Date: June 3rd, 2009 06:31 pm (UTC) (Link)
>>I guess for a lot of people RPF has just become a form of human au

And all the people who wouldn't have been seen dead reading a human AU suddenly find this acceptable, yet these are real, living people with real feelings/reputations to get hurt. I refuse to have anything to do with that.*

*Unless real people turn up in a professional capacity. I did write about the members of Time Team once, but they were just doing their jobs, I wasn't writing Tony Robinson/Mick the Dig or anything!

liliaeth From: liliaeth Date: June 3rd, 2009 06:46 pm (UTC) (Link)
Well I read one fic that had Jared meeting Sam, with the idea that they just look a lot alike. But that was a case fic, not a slash fic, and put Jared in the Supernatural world, while focusing on the Winchesters.

But other than that I totally agree, I guess I get squicked reading about real people having sex. It just feels wrong. And if it's an au, then why even name the characters after the actors, why not just change the names and call it what it is, an original story.
bogwitch From: bogwitch Date: June 3rd, 2009 07:07 pm (UTC) (Link)
At least with a Buffy human AU there should (if the person was doing it right) be some similarity between the characters and the ones in the show, with RPS no one really knows these people anyway.
ladypeyton From: ladypeyton Date: June 3rd, 2009 02:12 pm (UTC) (Link)
I agree about wincest. First of all, incest is just icky. But you're completely right about taking a beautiful and complex relationship and flattening it down to be just about sex.

I feel exactly the same way about Spangel.

I'm not really a fan of slash. It does nothing for me. I end up feeling voyeuristic and slightly embarrassed whenever I read it.
liliaeth From: liliaeth Date: June 3rd, 2009 06:03 pm (UTC) (Link)
well I'm pro-spangel, but that one falls under the vampire porn exception*eg*

Though one difference is that most good spangel fics depend on the same back and forth that happens between them in a gen fic. Struggle for domination, acceptance, jealousy... (well it does as long as the writer doesn't try and throw out both guys' love for Buffy)

Where as the bond between the Winchesters, whether it's John, Sam, Dean or Mary goes far beyond anything that can be expressed, sort of, in a sexual relationship.

That and it's incest which is just ewwwwww
hobbituk From: hobbituk Date: June 3rd, 2009 05:22 pm (UTC) (Link)
But didn't you know there can't be any sort of relationship without teh sex????!!!!

That's what gets on my nerves - not the slash, but the fact that men can't be friends any more. Nobody thinks that women who are good friends must be lesbians, but men who are close to another man are automatically assumed to be shagging them. Grrrh.

And as for incest... there is a fundamental wrongness about this. I can understand the odd case where siblings are separated at birth, know nothing about one another and mistake the connection they feel when they meet years later as a sexual one, but when they grow up together? Wrong, wrong, wrong on soooo many levels.

liliaeth From: liliaeth Date: June 3rd, 2009 06:01 pm (UTC) (Link)
Sometimes I feel like people don't seem to realize that there are ways for people to relate, that do not involve sex.
mabel_marsters From: mabel_marsters Date: June 3rd, 2009 05:32 pm (UTC) (Link)
I totally agree with your post and the comments. I have never looked into any Supernatural comms etc because when I think of Spn fanfic I just think of Wincest or RL Jensen/Jared.

I wrote a little Dean AND Spike fic recently for the crossover week at nekid_spike but haven't posted anywhere else apart from my lj as couldn't bring myself to troll through Supernatural Wincest porn!LOL!
liliaeth From: liliaeth Date: June 3rd, 2009 05:59 pm (UTC) (Link)
you should try the Dean/Castiel coms, those are usually wincest free ;-)

And Castiel is pretty damn hot*eg*
hells_half_acre From: hells_half_acre Date: June 15th, 2009 03:00 am (UTC) (Link)
I wrote about this over on my lj too:

I agree COMPLETELY, of course.
crimsonsenya From: crimsonsenya Date: June 25th, 2009 02:27 pm (UTC) (Link)
We've been lj friends quite a long time, though not very close. And for the past two years I've been on a lj hiatus. During this time it seems SPN really has broken through to the LJ fandom. I began watching the show during the first season and I was one of the first in my flist. My brain is wired to seeking homoerotic subtext in a fictional text between two closely interacting non-related men whom I find attractive. I did this before I had any idea what slash was. SPN really threw me off. Here were these two gorgeous guys and there was this incredible chemistry both on screen and off and those two had to be brothers. I struggled I with my with myself for about half a season before I succumbed to reading Sam/Dean fics. I read J2 rps first. Then I kept reading wincest fics for about the length of the second season before my consciousness finally won. I came to my senses and stopped reading. I have four half brothers older than me. Two of the oldest are twins and the second two are full brothers two each other and half brothers to the twins and me. (Confusing, isn't it? lol) Even the quickest flash of a thought that there would be something sexual makes me violently sick. I couldn't stand it in a fictional world either. Reading wincest was like some addiction that I knew was bad for me and that now I am happy to be free from.

This may sound weird, me talking about it in these terms, but I really feel like this about it. Wincest, to me, is the kind of a twisted place that I don't want to stay in.
liliaeth From: liliaeth Date: June 25th, 2009 04:41 pm (UTC) (Link)
I know what you mean. Just the thought of even thinking of my two brothers together like that is enough to disgust me.

And yet I can't think of anyone more important to me than either of my brothers or my sister.

I love twisted, I love sick and kinky. Hell I'm totally into slave fic*g*, but incest is one of those squicks that I can't and don't want to get past.
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