Two of my fave boyss
Just a statement from a Dean girl - Me myself and I
It's all about me
liliaeth
liliaeth
Just a statement from a Dean girl

There is no faster way to get me to stop reading your fic, no matter how good it might be otherwise, than by turning Dean or Jensen into the bad guy/asshole/whatever…

I hate bashing in general, but if your writing requires you to insult, denigrate or jerkify Dean or Jensen, then you lose all my interest.

I may have serious issues with Sam right now, and I think he behaved like an asshole in s8-s9, but I’ll also still stop reading if you claim Sam being evil is in character. Rather than an AU.

(hey I like the occasional evil Sam and evil Cas, but then I want it made clear up ahead that Sam’s evil and that thus regular characterization does not apply. And I prefer there being some reason as to why Sam or Cas are behaving the way they are )

I unfortunately do not have the same exemption for Dean. I respect your right to see things differently, but I have little to no interest in reading about Dean being evil. Which is going to cause serious trouble with my enjoyment of s10 of SPN, of which I am well aware.

Maybe it's because I quite simply care for and identify with Jensen/Dean more than I do with Jared/Sam or Misha/Cas, but I just can't help it...

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Comments
skeletncloset From: skeletncloset Date: June 23rd, 2014 06:50 pm (UTC) (Link)
I'm a Dean-girl but I hate Sam bashing too. I also hate when tptb assassinate his character. There are certain criteria that must be met in order for me to accept Sam as an evil guy. He has to be in boy!kink/blood-drinker/sammifer mode. He can't be Evil for no reason.

Demon!Dean would never hurt Sam. It's out of character not only because it's not Dean's MO but because SAM HAS BEEN THE ONLY ONE ABLE TO TALK HIM OUT OF HIS BLOODLUST!

SAM GROUNDS HIM! Dean's said Sam makes him human, brings out the best in him. And it's true because when Sam isn't around, be it physically or emotionally, Dean goes psycho.
liliaeth From: liliaeth Date: June 23rd, 2014 06:57 pm (UTC) (Link)
Honestly, my biggest issue with s8 and s9, is how out of character Sam was for most of the season. And the writers didn't even seem to realize it, nor did they get that Sam damn well needed to be redeemed for his behavior. It's like he was written by Sam bashers.

Though I'll admit that the fact that Sam fans don't even get just how badly Sam came off and keep coming up with excuses instead of dealing with canon, plays a big part in why I have less and less interest in Sam-centric fic

Honestly, the only way I'll accept evil Demon!Dean is if he gets overprotective of Sam to such a point that Sam is scared to go out because Dean might kill someone for being rude to Sam ;-)

I don't know, I'm just not as interested in King of hell fics that I've seen prompts for on the spn kink meme. Because I much prefer king of hell Sam. Even evil, Dean would still have that submissive side that's been a huge part of his character since s1. It's something I just don't see in Sam, who's been dominant or trying to gain control for as long as the show has been going.

I think that for me, the main difference is that evil Sam makes Sam more interesting because it allows him to explore new options. Whereas evil Dean makes Dean less interesting, because it limits him to the stereotypical anti-hero while removing his more, for lack of a better word, feminine, more sensitive side, that makes him more than a cliché to begin with.

Edited at 2014-06-23 07:00 pm (UTC)
skeletncloset From: skeletncloset Date: June 23rd, 2014 07:05 pm (UTC) (Link)
I just don't believe anything past s5 as canon. No fucking way. Kripkes vision of the boys is the ONLY canon. The rest is bad fanfic. The s7 clown episode where Dean made pedo rape jokes? Abandoning Sam at a restaurant while he got his groove on?

Yeah, no.

So I really have no issues with s9 because I think of it as bad fanfic and AWFUL fanservice. All the angel bullshit has been boring and the powers that be trying to start another show by writing the coat tails of SPN and COMPLETELY ignoring the lore that's been in place since season 1?

Nope. It tanked for a reason. They should do a spin off off the angel story arc. It would make more sense. Also, I watch the show for Sam/Dean, the fact that their screen time has been cut short pisses me off.
lit_gal From: lit_gal Date: June 23rd, 2014 07:45 pm (UTC) (Link)
It's weird. I'm reading this thinking YEA! and then it occurred to me... wait... I think it's horrible to make him evil, but I wrote a story where a hellhound fucked him. I think I"m bowing out of any high ground now.
liliaeth From: liliaeth Date: June 23rd, 2014 07:47 pm (UTC) (Link)
lol, what high ground*g*

Honestly, I was writing this and halfway through it I realized that well, I like reading evil Sam and I've written both evil Sam, evil Jared and evil Cas.

Which is why I guess that things like these are personal preferences*g*

And really it's spn fandom. I started out having issues with rps and m-preg and all kinds of stuff that I've ended up reading or writing in the past few years since I first joined fandom.
lit_gal From: lit_gal Date: June 23rd, 2014 07:50 pm (UTC) (Link)
It is a slightly scary fandom, and you definitely have to watch the warnings--far more than in other fandoms. However, when I needed to go dark and I was in a bad place, you notice I went straight to SPN. Those boys are so screwed up already that you can do almost anything to them in fanfic and you won't be doing any more harm than in canon.

And I can get behind evil Sam because DUDE... he chose to drink demon blood. He was the vessel for Lucifer. There's some canon behind evil Sam. Same with evil Cas and his whole "I am God" routine. There is some canon to jump off from.
liliaeth From: liliaeth Date: June 23rd, 2014 07:54 pm (UTC) (Link)
that and evil Sam is hot as hell.

It's like I said above. Evil Sam feels like it could come form the character because it's brings out his inherent need for control and power.

With Dean though, it's like people use it as an excuse to throw out all the personality traits that make Dean more than your typical anti-hero. And completely ignoring his innate submissive nature that makes him so interesting to me because it goes in against the image he tries so hard to present to the world.
lit_gal From: lit_gal Date: June 23rd, 2014 07:55 pm (UTC) (Link)
And I completely agree with everything you just said. EVERYTHING
saltandburnboys From: saltandburnboys Date: June 24th, 2014 12:41 am (UTC) (Link)
Urghhh, don't even get me started...I think I'm one of the very few people who's really worried about season ten. For me, it's like the writers seem to have this kind of tally thing going on right now where whatever they do to Sam, they have to do to Dean. So because we had Sam treading the dark side back in season four, we have to have Dean do it too...WHICH WOULD NEVER HAPPEN. NOPE. NO. NOPE. I hate when they try and make the characters the same - they're not the same and that's why the show works so well. They have completely opposite viewpoints on the world - except when it comes to each other - and that leads them to make very different decisions.

God, they better not make Dean evil...I will be so fucking angry...

xx
liliaeth From: liliaeth Date: June 24th, 2014 04:20 pm (UTC) (Link)
What annoys me more, is that far too often the writers seem to take Sam's pain more serious than they do Dean's.
dreamsofspike From: dreamsofspike Date: June 24th, 2014 07:49 am (UTC) (Link)
I will say that I'm very glad you clarified that it's a preference thing. :P

To this point, I haven't written any evil ANYONE fics (though I have an evil, soulless!Sam fic in the works that I haven't officially started yet). But in every fandom I've been in, I've found it fun and challenging to try and write darker interpretations of the lead characters, see what circumstances and situations could twist them into doing terrible things, and portray it in as realistic and emotionally effective a manner as possible.

So basically I'm saying... I can't guarantee I'll never do that to Dean? Just like I'm about to do it to Sam, for example. But I'll definitely warn for that kind of thing when/if it happens, because I don't want anyone to be caught off guard. :P

You definitely raise an interesting viewpoint.
liliaeth From: liliaeth Date: June 24th, 2014 04:19 pm (UTC) (Link)
Yeah, I wouldn't want to pretend there's something wrong with other people do liking this stuff, just because I don't like it.

I mean, considering how much I like the occasional evilJared or hellkingSam fic, I hardly walk the moral high ground on this one. ;-)

So I get all too well that urge to write darker versions of the main chars.

I think that for me, the issue is that all that made me fall for Dean in the first part, is the soft marshmallow side of him underneath the image he presents to the world. And a lot of evilDean or asshole Dean fics, act as if that image is the real Dean rather than a front. Limiting his character.

Especially when it's say, a highschool au, and they have 'popular jock' Dean acting like an asshole to sweet nerdy Cas, which just... does not work for me. Since, one, you have to change Dean's entire past and personality to turn him into the stereotypical jock, and two, I just don't relate to Cas as a woobie.
dreamsofspike From: dreamsofspike Date: July 23rd, 2014 06:42 am (UTC) (Link)
While I very much DO relate to Cas as a woobie (probably because I relate a lot to Cas in general) - I COMPLETELY agree with you about Dean, and the sort of surface reading of his character that accompanies a lot of evil!Dean or dark!Dean fics. When I find a fic in that genre that I enjoy, it's always something with a lot more depth than that, something that gives the reasons for Dean's assholish behavior and ties it into his existing issues/past hurts/etc.

As for high school AUs, etc - I have a hard time getting into AUs in general. There's too much to work with in the existing SPN universe for me to bother with other ones :P hehe
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